Commitments of Conscious Leadership with Jim Dethmer

“If you stop numbing the pain that’s there because you are not living in your deepest, fiercest loving way, the pain will escalate to where you have to do something different. And it won’t just be a temporary fix, you’ll have to do something meaningfully different.” – Jim Dethmer

Ask yourself: are you willing to become truly alive? What fear is holding you back from pursuing aliveness? Coach, speaker, and author Jim Dethmer has spent years teaching people how to eliminate the obfuscations and drama that prevent them from accepting the truth: that they have the power and courage to become alive.

Jim Dethmer has been called to reduce suffering by targeting the institution that’s more central to our lives than ever: work and business. As the founder of The Conscious Leadership Group, he finds the ways that teams are struggling and shows them not only how to better their experience at work, but improve their lives as human beings. By smuggling transformational principles into corporate worlds, he is cultivating true conscious leadership from the people who never knew that was something they even needed.

This week on Find Your Fierce & Loving, let go of the belief that you must always be seeking more. Let yourself feel the pain of existence so that you may finally act, push fear aside, and become fully alive.

• (03:15) – Changing paths
• (11:31) – Fully alive
• (24:31) – Receptivity to these principles
• (30:55) – Cornerstones
• (34:50) – Commitments of conscious leadership

Jim Dethmer is a coach, speaker, author, and founding partner at The Conscious Leadership Group. He has personally worked with over 150 CEOs and their teams to integrate conscious leadership into their organizations. Jim also leads monthly Forums for select leaders in Chicago and New York, and trains coaches through The Conscious Leadership Group. He has spoken at Conscious Capitalism, Wisdom 2.0, Mindful Leadership Summit,  Northwestern University Kellogg School of Management, and USC School of Medicine Greenville (where conscious leadership is part of the curriculum). He is co-author of High Performing Investment Teams, and The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, an Amazon bestseller (2015).

Do you want to unleash your inherent love and goodness, liberate yourself, and free humanity from the oppressive systems and structures we have created? We are here to support you in finding your fierce and loving life. Join us in Our Circle, a vibrant membership community rich in opportunities for engagement and transformation. Find out more at lolawright.com/our-circle.

You can follow Lola Wright, on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter and learn more about my work at lolawright.com.

Chicago born and built, Lola grew up in wealth and privilege, yet always sensed something was missing. She sought out aliveness and freedom in music, immersing herself in the hip hop and house music scenes of 90s Chicago. After finding herself on her own at 23, as the mother of two young children, she became determined to create a new experience.

Lola is an ordained minister with a gift for weaving together the mystical and material, she served for many years as the CEO of Bodhi Center, an organization committed to personal transformation, collective awakening, conscious activism, and community-building. 

This podcast is produced by Quinn Rose with theme music by independent producer Trey Royal.

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Lola Wright [00:01] Personal transformation and collective awakening involve being the most alive, brilliant, inspired, creative, on fire version of yourself. A version that is not consistent with the status quo. My name is Lola Wright and this is Find Your Fierce & Loving. This podcast is a wake up call, a road map back to your holy purpose, an invitation to set fire to the box you’ve been living in and watch it burn.

Lola Wright [00:40] I am so excited to share today’s episode with you. I have been incredibly fortunate to have the experience of some of my greatest mentors becoming dear, dear friends. And that is certainly true about today’s guest, the brilliant Jim Dethmer. I have known Jim a very long time now, and so it’s sort of weird to say I’ve actually known him over a decade. He served as the Board President of Bodhi Center and has been really an inspiration and a healer, a healing presence really in my life. So, let me tell you a little bit about him.

Lola Wright [01:16] Jim Dethmer is a coach, speaker, author, and founding partner of the Conscious Leadership Group. He has personally worked with over 150 CEOs and their teams to integrate conscious leadership within their organizations. Jim leads monthly Forums for select leaders in Chicago and New York and trains coaches through the Conscious Leadership Group. He has spoken at Conscious Capitalism, Wisdom 2.0, Mindful Leadership Summit, Northwestern University Kellogg School of Management, and USC School of Medicine Greenville where conscious leadership is part of the curriculum.

Lola Wright [01:53] He is the co-author of High Performing Investment Teams and The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership which has been an Amazon bestseller. Jim lives in Chicago with his extraordinary wife, Debbie Burditt, and they are spending lots of time in Michigan these days which is really their soul’s home. So, beyond the accolades and the credentials that Jim Dethmer arrives with, more importantly he really is a devotional practitioner to the field of consciousness. He is a constant invitation to personal transformation and our collective awakening. I offer you this episode with deep reverence for the work that you do as a listener, this digital gathering space, and the community that we’re forming and enjoy.

Lola Wright [02:44] Well, so first of all, I am very grateful that you’re on this podcast. I feel honored and inspired, and I asked Nathan this morning like, “What do you think I should ask Jim?” And he’s like, “I have no questions for Jim. I only have love for Jim.”

Jim Dethmer [03:03] That tells you a lot more about Nathan than it does about me or you. Nathan has moved beyond questions.

Lola Wright [03:10] Yeah.

Jim Dethmer [03:11] … into the space of pure love. That’s beautiful.

Lola Wright [03:14] Yeah, yeah. But when I think about this idea of fierce and loving, as I said, it really occurs for me as someone who’s willing to take risks, to move beyond the confines of acceptability. And I feel like that’s what you’ve done much of the last couple decades. There’s sort of this idea of who Jim Dethmer was supposed to be, and you’ve untangled largely from that and recreated who you say you’re here to be and that is scary to do. Many of us don’t want to take that risk and so there was a moment, and we could go back through your whole bio and review that. But, there was certainly a line in the sand where you said, “I can’t do this life anymore. Something bigger needs to open up here for me.” What was that like for you?

Jim Dethmer [04:07] I have goosebumps just hearing you say that. So, there have been multiple times in my life when I have said, “I can’t do this anymore.” Now, your phrase was, “I can’t do this anymore. There must be something bigger.” That actually hasn’t been the completion of the sentence for me.

Lola Wright [04:29] Hmm.

Jim Dethmer [04:29] One of the… Depends on what we mean by bigger, but I would say, for me, it’s been, “I can’t do this anymore. I need to do something more authentic. Or, I can’t do this anymore. I need to do something more enlivening.” Because one of the first places this had occurred for me, as you know, is I was a minister. And, I was a minister at the largest church in the United States. So, I was speaking to thousands of people every week. I was one of the two or three speakers every week.

Jim Dethmer [05:07] I had tasted a bigness, and I knew that wasn’t it. Having more fame, more prestige, more reputation. In fact, when I made that line in the sand, when I crossed that one, it was, “I can’t do this anymore. I need something more authentic, and I imagine that is smaller.” So, I went from a large presence to virtually nothing for several years.

Lola Wright [05:38] Yeah, I think when I say bigness, I mean like freedom.

Jim Dethmer [05:42] Yeah, okay. Great.

Lola Wright [05:44] Like access to intention and purpose, and that’s sort of like the quality of bigness or impact in my own life that I think of. And I mean, I think one of the things that’s interesting, and I imagine you experience this in the people that you work with now, is that the idea of leaving something that’s so alluring for nothing is like very few humans feel like, one, they can afford to do that. I mean, I think most people are like, “I don’t even know how… I would not even have a sense of self outside of this thing that I have propped myself up on.”

Lola Wright [06:29] So, when someone is hearing that and saying, “Yeah, well Jim, that’s nice for you. I can’t afford to leave these golden handcuffs or whatever the case may be.” I think I know enough about your story to say it wasn’t like a super calculated choice where you’re like, “I have X number of dollars in the bank, and this is now a cushy decision.”

Jim Dethmer [06:50] No! Not at all! I mean, we didn’t have much money in the bank at all. I mean, I probably had maybe three months, six months. But remember, I wasn’t just leaving like, “Okay, I’m going to go. I’m going to take a three month sabbatical and then return. Or, I’m going to take three months off and then go to a new church or something like that.” This was, “I’m done with that career. And, I have no idea what my next career was.” So, it wasn’t like I had a cushy thing. I was rolling the dice and putting everything at risk.

Jim Dethmer [07:24] And I want to say something. When people say that to me, which they often do, the kind of thing you said, I say, “First of all, I totally understand.” Then, we talk about smaller ways to become more fierce, to become more alive, to become more free. People say to me, “Your life has been characterized by so much courage.” And over here, it doesn’t feel like courage because I couldn’t have not done what I did.

Lola Wright [07:53] Yes.

Jim Dethmer [07:53] My soul was becoming so barren, so bereft of love. Objectively, it probably looked crazy. And internally, there was no other option.

Lola Wright [08:09] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Jim Dethmer [08:12] And that’s often when I have drawn a line and crossed it, when I go, “There’s no other option here for me.” And I’m grateful that my life, through nothing of my own, orients that way. So, I come to these moments, just like you do Lola, where you go, “I can’t do that another day. I don’t know what I’m going to do, including I don’t know where money’s going to come from. But, I can’t do that.”

Lola Wright [08:40] Yeah, a friend of mine said to me recently, “Your risk tolerance is much higher than mine.” And I’m like…

Jim Dethmer [08:47] Right.

Lola Wright [08:48] “Maybe.” I mean, that’s a way to say it, but I very much identify with like… I literally, in my body… You talk so much about body intelligence. My body cannot withstand this way of organizing itself any longer.

Jim Dethmer [09:03] There you go. Now, I want to say something, because again, it’s probably… I don’t know this, but I’d hunch it’s probably more rare for people to do what you have done multiple times, and I’ve done multiple times, which is just let it go and shift.

Lola Wright [09:19] Mm-hmm.

Jim Dethmer [09:20] One of the reasons it’s more rare, and then I do want to come back to practical things you can do if you’re not willing to do that is, because so many people anesthetize themselves against the pain of not being fully alive. So, if I go to a job every day, and it’s not in my zone of genius, it’s not in my passion, it’s not aligned with my purpose or my calling, if that’s what I’m doing every day, that is causing shrinkage of my aliveness.

Jim Dethmer [09:52] Now, what happens is, rather than feel the pain of that, I numb it. I couldn’t numb it. It’s not that I didn’t try, and eventually I stopped trying. And I say this to people all the time, “If you stop numbing the pain that’s there because you are not living in your deepest, fiercest, loving way, the pain will escalate to where you have to do something different. And it won’t just be a temporary fix. You’ll have to do something meaningfully different.”

Lola Wright [10:29] Yeah. So, if someone says, “Okay, I’m not willing to jump in the deep end.” What are some micro movements you recommend people take that can create an increased sense of aliveness?

Jim Dethmer [10:44] So, you know this about me, but the first place I always start is I ask them what we call a willingness question. So, I just say, “Would you be willing to be fully alive?” It’s such a good question, and it’s not like there’s a right answer because for many people, the best course of action in their life is not to be fully alive. It would create too much chaos. So, I just ask, “Would you be willing to be fully alive?” And they tune in, and for most people the answer’s no.

Jim Dethmer [11:14] And then, I’ll have them complete these kinds of sentences: If I were fully alive, I’d be afraid that… And now you’re starting to call up from the depths what it is that you’re choosing over aliveness.

Lola Wright [11:31] And just as a little disclaimer, what do you mean when you say alive? If someone’s listening to this and they’re like, “I don’t even know what you mean by that. That’s not even a context for my existence.”

Jim Dethmer [11:42] I mean it at several levels. So, just at the level of the body, by fully alive I mean I am able to feel my body. I can experience my body as a set of sensations that are not blocked. Most people have so limited their aliveness, and one of the ways they’ve done it is they’ve literally dampened down their somatic aliveness. I mean, I’ve worked with people who, honest to God, if I say to them, “Tell me what sensations you’re currently experiencing below your waist.” They have no idea. It’s not that… They don’t know.

Jim Dethmer [12:26] Whatever else aliveness is, my body is alive. It means being emotionally alive. So, an emotionally alive person can feel all of their feelings. And, they can dance with all feeling states as though the feelings are bringing color to their experience of life. So, think about it, most people repress or suppress all kinds of feelings. So, fully alive is my body. I’m in touch with my body. I’m in touch with my feelings. Fully alive for me is, and we could explore what we mean by this… Fully alive for me is, I’m able to be creatively available to this now moment and what wants to happen.

Lola Wright [13:20] And I’m willing. Able, being one thing, and I love this. This is one of the great gifts I’ve gotten from you is the distinction between wanting and willing. So there’s the ability. And then, there’s the willingness.

Jim Dethmer [13:33] Yes, yes. Which is why I said I usually start with, “Are you willing to be fully alive? Are you willing to have all of your creative energy available to this now moment? Are you willing to live in an improvisational dance with life where you are regularly surprised? Where wonder and awe become a condition of existence.”

Lola Wright [13:57] Mm-hmm.

Jim Dethmer [13:58] So, I just want to say, the other piece of fully alive, it’s not just an individual practice. For most people, unless you’ve taken a vow of silence and solitude, for most of us fully alive means my relationships are fully alive, which means we speak honestly with candor. We unblame. We co-create together instead of being codependent. Then, you could just go on and on. So, that’s what fully alive, it means all that to me.

Jim Dethmer [14:30] So then, am I willing to be fully alive? No, because if I were, I’d be afraid that… Well, golly, I’d be afraid that I’d have to quit my job. I’d be afraid that I’d have to end this relationship. I’d be afraid that I’d be broke. I’d be afraid that I’d be disowned from my family because nobody in my family’s fully alive, and I would be shunned. All these natural fears come up. So, you asked me practically. That’s one of the first things I do because I want people to start to become self aware of what they’re choosing instead of full aliveness and not make it bad. Just start to feel the choice points and start to feel the costs.

Jim Dethmer [15:14] Then, I would ask them if they want to just toddle their way into this. I’d say, “Pick one small area where you’re willing to start to experience more freedom, more aliveness.” And let’s say they say, “In my intimate relationship.” I say, “Great. Let’s start there.” So then, I would just start making little suggestions like, “Would you be willing to tell your partner what you really want without being entitled to getting it? Just reveal yourself. Would you be willing to reveal yourself fully or a little bit more? Would you be willing to speak your withholds?”

Jim Dethmer [15:56] Well, my God. Candor is the ultimate portal to aliveness in a relationship. You know this about as well as anybody on the planet. And people kill their relationships. They take all the love out of them because they start withholding.

Lola Wright [16:12] Yes, yes.

Jim Dethmer [16:13] And then, the relationship dies.

Lola Wright [16:15] Yes.

Jim Dethmer [16:15] So, would you just be willing to reveal some of your withholds? People go, “Oh my God! Oh my God!” And I go, “Your Oh my God makes sense to me.” It’s like Scott Peck, that old thing about you know… There’s Pseudo Community and then there’s truth telling. And then, there’s the tunnel of chaos comes after the truth telling. People aren’t dumb. They’re avoiding the tunnel of chaos. If I said that to my partner, it would turn into a shit show.

Lola Wright [16:42] Would you say that we’re living in the tunnel of chaos in a collective experience right now?

Jim Dethmer [16:50] It’s such a good question. So, you remember in Peck’s model, and I never get it exactly right, but it’s basically, we start out in Pseudo Community which is some form of denial.

Lola Wright [16:57] Mm-hmm.

Jim Dethmer [16:58] Well, think about the collective. We’ve been in massive denial. Now some truth is penetrating our collective unconsciousness. Okay, now a lot of people are trying to go back into the numbness of Pseudo Community because they don’t want to experience the truth of what the virus is here to teach us or what the current economic situation is here to teach us. Or what, just fill in the blank.

Jim Dethmer [17:25] So, they want to go back into denial. But some people don’t go back into denial. Then, they’re willing to be with the truth and go into the tunnel of chaos, a huge part of which is living in total uncertainty. I have no idea what the fuck to do if I face the reality of what’s so.

Lola Wright [17:44] Which is what happened to you in every one of your leaps. You had a willingness to be with the unknown.

Jim Dethmer [17:52] That’s right. And then, just to finish Peck’s model, and it’s probably my model now because I butchered his. Then, in the tunnel of chaos, here comes the question. Am I willing to trust and value learning? So, am I willing to trust the chaos? Am I willing to trust the penetration of the truth and prioritize learning, growing, expanding over the familiar, the predictable, the certain.

Lola Wright [18:26] Mm-hmm.

Jim Dethmer [18:27] If I do that, I move to a new level of, whatever word you want to use here, authentic community instead of Pseudo Community, or a new level of aliveness, or a new level of freedom, or a new level of love because if I’m going to be a person who lives in and from love, I’m going to be going through this all the time. I’m going to want to drift back to what is safe. Truth is going to come in and disrupt my safety. I’m going to either choose to go into the chaos and the uncertainty, anchoring it in more and more trust and a commitment to learn. And then, I’m going to break through into a new capacity for love, both giving and receiving. It just never stops.

Jim Dethmer [19:09] And you know, all the great traditions have talked about this. They just all use different language for it. There’s nothing new here. This is the spiritual path.

Lola Wright [19:18] One of the things that you said earlier was that this life that you are experiencing, and you didn’t say this, this is what I’m hearing, that the aliveness, the expansion, the good, however we would articulate that, what I inferred is… I, of my own self, do nothing. That there’s something greater that has been orchestrating my experience. And, my understanding is that you don’t necessarily identify as a Christian minister any longer, and you teach a model that’s based on the distinction between “to me” victim consciousness, there’s an external force opposing me, or “by me,” I have the capacity to take radical responsibility.

Lola Wright [20:04] But what you’re talking about is something beyond those two models.

Jim Dethmer [20:08] Absolutely. Okay, well you know because the model I like I got from one of your great mentors, Michael Beckwith, and I don’t know where he got it. But, I first heard it from him. You know, the first movement is from “to me” to “by me.” Like you said, from at the effect of to being the creator. And by the way, that can work in sourcing more potency, love, freedom, aliveness. I just stopped living in victimhood, and I start claiming responsibility for my life. And all of a sudden, things start to be experienced very differently.

Jim Dethmer [20:42] Yeah, so we know that. You know that terrain. Well, Beckwith said the next state of consciousness, not stage, state, it’s not developmental, we just go in and out of it, is through me. And through me, for me, is, “Okay, when I’m in ‘by me’, I’ve learned how to develop some mastery of my life. I’ve learned principles, and when I follow these principles, I create outcomes. My relationships are starting to tune up.”

Jim Dethmer [21:08] And then, in my experience, most people at some point come to this question, “Is there anything going on different from, bigger than, in addition to my me?” Or, “Am I really the center of the universe?” Which is what it appears to the identified ego. Is there something else going on? And, without asserting whether there is or isn’t, just that question changes the game. And in my experience, and in your experience, I find that there is something else going on that I don’t create, that it isn’t me, though it includes me. There is that something going on that I can start to, in the “through me” stage, start to be with. Listen to, let flow through me.

Jim Dethmer [22:07] So, when I’m in “to me” I say, “Why the hell is this happening to me?” When I’m in “by me” I say, “What do I want to create?” When I’m in “through me” I say, “What wants to be created through me?” To your point, what does love want to do in, as, and through me? It’s a very different question than “What do I want to do with my life?” They’re both good questions.

Jim Dethmer [22:32] So then, as I start to surrender, which is the operative word, into this, I don’t care what you call it, God, Spirit, you know, the Quantum, when I start to surrender into this, I start to experience a meaningful change in my freedom and aliveness. Because now, there’s a dance much bigger than just me. And then, as you know, Beckwith’s last box was what he called “as me,” which is whatever you want to call it. It’s either Oneness or total emptiness. It’s either everything and nothing. It’s total non-duality. It is neither form nor formless.

Jim Dethmer [23:18] And, as I play more in that space, and as you do, what I experience is that that emptiness or that fullness is not just neutral. It is at first neutral, but it’s actually loving. Now, not loving in the kind of dime store way that we think of loving. But the reason I say all that is because then I don’t have to create myself a more loving person. I don’t have to become more loving. Love already is.

Jim Dethmer [23:52] I just start to recognize that love is all there ever is, and I just start to, now I’m using dualistic language, an I and an it and a me. But, there’s not that. It’s just in that space there actually is no personal me. There is only love manifesting as this thing called Jim and this thing called Lola. And, that’s great because then love, freedom, whatever you call it, is just all there is. And so now, you just have to remind yourself that you’ve forgotten. You’ve temporarily forgotten what’s true. So, that’s kind of the whole journey, “to me,” “by me,” “through me,” “as me.”

Lola Wright [24:32] Over the course of your career, I would imagine you have experienced an increased level of receptivity to these principles. Is that, I mean, because someone could be listening to this and going, “Okay, that’s really beautiful pros and how lovely.” But the fact of the matter is, you’re actually bringing this into some relatively traditional spaces.

Jim Dethmer [24:55] Right, we bring this into Corporate America. Now, I don’t walk into a large bank on Wall Street and say, “Before our day’s over, you’re going to realize there are no problems, and there is no you to have the problems. There is only Oneness manifesting in all perfection at all times.” I start with, “You’re currently dysfunctional as a team, and here’s what your dysfunctionality looks like because I did pre engagement surveys. And, it’s costing you to be so dysfunctional.”

Jim Dethmer [25:26] Now, code, what I know is, they’re dysfunctional because they’re living in “to me.” They’re still a blame culture. They’re still wanting to be right rather than learn. They’re repressing feelings, theirs and others. They’re not telling the truth. They’re not living with clear agreements. They’re not living. I know the characteristics of high performing teams.

Jim Dethmer [25:45] So, one of the things we do, you know this, is we smuggle, I like that word, transformational principles into worlds where, generally speaking, they wouldn’t want to listen to. Like you know, our teachers. Our teachers are people like, whoever, Eckhart Tolle, Byron Katie, Hale Dwoskin, Romano Maharshi, Jesus, I don’t care, whoever. There’s this group of… Well, the leaders of Wall Street Bank aren’t cuing up Eckhart Tolle every day to figure out the power of now.

Lola Wright [26:22] Mm-hmm.

Jim Dethmer [26:23] Which is what you and I do. So, then my job is to go in and translate so that a hard edged banker can go, “Jeez, you know, I don’t want to admit it to anybody else, but when I wake up at three in the morning, the things he’s talking about really make sense to me. Because yeah, I made $52 million last year, and I’m empty. My kids don’t talk to me. I’m on my third marriage.” Or, “I got to be on the Investment Council of this bank, and I thought that would be the ultimate prize. And, the joy of it lasted about two days.”

Lola Wright [27:03] I have chills when I hear that.

Jim Dethmer [27:04] Right! “But, I can’t tell that to anybody because everybody in my circle is pretending that that’s the game.” Great, but then they listen to people like you and me and others and they go, “God, you know, I used to think that was all touchy feely bullshit and a complete waste of time. But, I might go back to that meeting next week. I think there might be something there.”

Lola Wright [27:25] One of the most beautiful things that I’ve seen, and I’m sure you see this all the time, is when an organizational space, and specifically an organizational business space, cracks open. And all of a sudden, some very unexpected behaviors begin to emerge in a professional setting like tears. My regular sense is like there’s a humanity that’s being revealed that people are so starved for. Yeah, I mean, on your website it says we exist to support the expansion of conscious leadership in the world.

Lola Wright [28:03] And I could ask you, why do you think that that’s important? Why does that matter?

Jim Dethmer [28:09] So, that’s like the stated thing that we’re up to in the world because what we’re really up to is even too far fetched. So, what we say is we do that as a means to the end of ending suffering. So, why does supporting the expansion of conscious leadership matter? Because it might lead to less suffering. So, that’s what we’re really up to.

Jim Dethmer [28:37] And then, why conscious leadership? Well, now you get down to our particular niche in the world focuses on leadership. We’re really interested in leadership, people who take responsibility for the influence they’re having in the world. Now, once you narrow down the leadership, there’s countless good things being said about leadership from The Harvard Business School to Lencioni and Five Dysfunctions or The Advantage. There’s great stuff.

Jim Dethmer [29:04] But, there isn’t that much being said about conscious leadership. And of course, as you know, we have a whole definition of what all that means and how that works. So, we support the expansion of conscious leadership is just giving us a purpose, a target, and a definition of what we’re here to do. And, we largely do it with business organizations, although we do it with non for profits. We do it with education. We do it with politics. We do it with sports. But, we really wrestle all the time with staying targeted on businesses because they are, in many ways, the most dense of all consciousnesses.

Jim Dethmer [29:43] And, we have what we call a trim tab theory, which is on a big rudder on a ship or a big rudder on an airplane. In order for the ship to turn, the rudder has to move. But, before the rudder moves, a little thing in the rudder called a trim tab moves first. And, that takes pressure off the rudder, and then the rudder can move. We are looking, we just feel called, to look for the trim tab humans who, when they shift, the rudder moves and possibly the whole ship moves.

Jim Dethmer [30:16] So you know, we could talk about for years, the trim tab and the rudder was the family, or it was a spiritual community for years. Well, right now it seems that the trim tab is business. We could say it shouldn’t be. We could say that Capitalism has done everything it should do, and we should let the thing burn to the ground. Maybe. I’m agnostic about that. But, if you look at who are the people that if they shift great things shift, it’s a lot of those people.

Jim Dethmer [30:51] So, that’s why we stay focused there.

Lola Wright [30:53] Yes. Yes. So, I want to roll through a couple Jim-isms.

Jim Dethmer [31:00] Okay.

Lola Wright [31:00] And then, if any of them jump out at you, and you want to add a little color to them, feel free.

Jim Dethmer [31:04] Okay.

Lola Wright [31:05] I quote you on this one all the time. I think… My suspicion is it comes out of Jungian Theory. “You cannot shift what you cannot accept.” That’s just sort of a Jim-ism. Another one that has been life altering for me, and specifically for Nathan and me in our relationship, but I think it’s applicable to any way we move on the planet, “I commit to closeness and to removing all barriers to closeness.” That’s a pretty radical idea. When you start to actually perceive your lived experience through the many ways that you create barriers to closeness, it’s a big wake up call.

Jim Dethmer [31:46] Yes.

Lola Wright [31:47] I don’t think this one is native to you, so you’ll have to remind me where this comes from. But, I got it from you. “Love is wanting for another what they want for themself.”

Jim Dethmer [31:58] Yeah, comes from Hale Dwoskin, the Sedona Method.

Lola Wright [32:02] So, those are three cornerstones that I chew on all the time that if I ever find myself in an experience of suffering, I can sort of, “Okay, what’s happening here?” And so, I just thank you for giving me soundbites. In your most recent blog article, “Conscious Leadership is Like Pickleball,” you talk about something I think about a lot, which are basically just micro movements. Just oftentimes we relate to transformation as this big magical fairy that will sweep in and fix all of existence. And I think, unfortunately, it’s not always that sexy. It’s just one little micro practice after another.

Jim Dethmer [32:51] Yes, I have goosebumps. Yes, yes. And I think one of the needs in our world right now is for people to be able to see the next little micro practice. Will I do 10 minutes of loving kindness meditation? Not 20 minutes, maybe just five. Will I just do that five days in a row? Next week, will I actually write in my… I’ll get a gratitude journal. At the end of the day, I’m going to write five things I’m thankful for. Will I just do that?

Jim Dethmer [33:26] Little, tiny practices that anybody could do because otherwise, this world of consciousness or this world of liberation can be so big and so daunting, and the good news is it can be big. It’s infinite. You’re never going to run out of cool stuff to do and explore.

Lola Wright [33:51] Or material to work with.

Jim Dethmer [33:54] Exactly.

Lola Wright [33:54] Yeah.

Jim Dethmer [33:55] But, everybody asks, “Okay, that’s great. What do I do today?”

Lola Wright [34:00] Mm-hmm.

Jim Dethmer [34:01] I think that’s really useful.

Lola Wright [34:06] You want to be more alive. You want to unleash your inherent love and goodness, liberate yourself, and free humanity from the oppressive systems and structures we have created. We are here to support you in finding your fierce and loving life. Join us in Our Circle. This is an affirming and radical space that will gather weekly, on-demand or live, whatever works best for your life. For more information on how you can engage in Our Circle, visit lolawright.com/our-circle. I’d love to have you with us.

Lola Wright [34:50] I’ve been chewing on… So, there are 15 commitments of conscious leadership, and I was thinking about sitting with you today, and I was wondering what are the two that are up for me? And what are the two that I think are most relevant to the human condition? And, if you’re not familiar with The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership, read it, and you will be able to map on the relevancy for all of the dis-ease we are experiencing in the human condition. So, it’s an unfair assertion to say that there are two that are of priority. But, the two that jumped out at me were, one being play. The value of, you articulate rest and play. But, I actually want to bring particular attention to play because I know it’s one that you have been challenged on before.

Lola Wright [35:40] And, I have probably been one that has challenged you on it, either spoken or internalized. But, I’ve come to understand the essential nature of that practice. And of course when you say, “I commit to living a life of play,” and you said earlier, improvisation, what the mind will automatically say is, “Yes, but Jim if you understood this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this that happened to me, you would realize there is nothing playful about that.”

Lola Wright [36:14] And yet, paradoxically, the portal to and through and for freedom is to be with anything and everything from a state of playfulness. And, that is a true and total mind bender.

Jim Dethmer [36:31] Yes, it is. By the way, there’s a reason it’s commitment number nine, and not commitment number one because first of all, we lay a foundation, and we get some assumptions in place. Really, the first six commitments are how to end drama in your life. Then, the question is, when you end drama in your life, you’re going to have so much energy available to you that wasn’t available before because it was all consumed in drama. Now, what are you going to do with your drama? And, commitment number seven is appreciation.

Jim Dethmer [37:04] So, with the energy you’re going to get, you can learn to live in a state of appreciation. Commitment number eight is genius. With the energy you get, you can find your zone of genius and get about it. And commitment number nine is, with the energy you’re going to get back in life, you can cultivate a life of play. Now, I say that. I’ll say more about play, but the reason I say it’s that way is because if you’re still stuck on commitments one and two, a lot of victimhood and a lot of egoistic fixation on proving you’re right, then the idea of play as we talk about it is virtually impossible because from the consciousness, the contracted consciousness, which I totally understand. I still go there. So do you.

Jim Dethmer [37:49] From that contracted consciousness, here’s the key, my life seems serious. Now, let’s just skip for a minute the really big questions of life. Most people, the seriousness of their life are not the big questions. It’s the little questions like, “My dishwasher just broke, and the repairman can’t come, and it’s leaking all over the floor.” They make that really serious. I’m not saying it isn’t, but when you get attached to making it serious, then you lose playfulness.

Lola Wright [38:27] Mm-hmm.

Jim Dethmer [38:28] Well, what you discover is people who’ve lost their sense of childlike playfulness, it’s because they’re making everything in their life serious. So, in order to get to playfulness, I have to do some work around deconstructing some of my beliefs and some of my experiences of the seriousness of life. Now, just saying that I know the way people hear this. They go, “Well, you don’t know my life because my life really is serious.” And I’ve been in thousands of conversations. So, I just wanted to say to everybody listening to this, I understand. Believe me, I understand.

Jim Dethmer [39:05] If we were to have a cup of tea, and you were to tell me, “My life is serious because my child just got diagnosed with this. My partner just lost their job. My parents just got COVID.” I would say, “First of all, I get you. I get your fear. I get your anger. I get your terror. I get your sadness. You make sense to me.” I wouldn’t try to say those things aren’t serious.

Lola Wright [39:29] Mm-hmm.

Jim Dethmer [39:30] We would start into a process, and eventually if you stay in the process long enough, then you get to where very little seems very serious. By the way, back to your word Lola, isn’t that one of the definitions of freedom?

Lola Wright [39:47] Mm-hmm.

Jim Dethmer [39:49] Because it doesn’t mean that I don’t engage life with meaning and purpose. I do. I can actually be even more engaged and more purposeful with the things that matter to me in life without needing to make them all so damn serious. People don’t understand that. A real test for people like you, Lola, and others who have been practicing a little bit is, you’ll know you’re in a contracted consciousness, not fully free, not fully resting in love, not fully available to your aliveness, if it seems serious. Fill in the blank whatever the it is.

Lola Wright [40:31] Yeah, and I do think this is… I mean, I know this took me a long time to understand. But, I see it now so clearly, given the state of politics. Like the seriousness of the opposing party is so gripping and intoxicating that there is literally no space for creativity, imagination, and something new to emerge. And so, we could actually make the case that the absence of play, biologically, prevents our evolution.

Jim Dethmer [41:09] I think there is hard science behind that last sentence you just said. We could say biologically, chemically, that the absence of play prevents us from our evolution, from evolving to a higher state of politics. I think that’s absolutely true, and I think there’s some really good science coming forward to show that. We’re going to have to crack this code, otherwise what we’re doing just isn’t sustainable.

Lola Wright [41:41] Yeah. And the other commitment that I believe we’re dealing with right now is abundance or scarcity. Enough, is there enough? And, I think that our addiction to the belief that life is serious, and our addiction to the belief that there is not enough, those two combined create a lot of suffering.

Jim Dethmer [42:08] Absolutely right. Absolutely. That chapter on living from a place of enough-ness, we largely reference Lynne Twist in The Soul of Money. She’s so powerful there. There isn’t enough. I have to have more. You know, these core beliefs, which we all come with, again because we’re scared. So, we think we need more. In order to have more security, I need more provisions. Or, in order to be more loved, I need more of this. I don’t have enough time. I need more time. I don’t have enough energy. I need more energy.

Jim Dethmer [42:43] When we start to play this game and start to open up to the possibility that in every now moment, if you don’t leave the now moment, there’s always enough. Just start practicing that in little ways. Then, we can be in conversations, at least in my mind, and this is just my story about the world. The problems in the United States are not because there isn’t enough food, healthcare, opportunity. It’s because there’s, in the United States, an abundance. But, we’re all in a get all you can, can all you get, and poison the rest. We’re all playing a zero sum game where we think if you get empowered, I lose power. If you get that, I lose that.

Jim Dethmer [43:38] And that zero sum game always leads to win/lose thinking, and then it just becomes who’s got the most power? And, fierce love isn’t about that at all. It’s a completely different way to play the game that I think will emerge. I think there is something that is beyond Capitalism, beyond Socialism, that is a whole new paradigm that has yet to emerge because I just don’t think we, as a collective, are yet available to it. And, I hope we get available to it before we burn it all down. Maybe that’s what’ll happen, but I hope we get available to it.

Lola Wright [44:12] Jim Dethmer, you have been one of the great gifts in my life. You have taught me so much about relational living versus transactional living. You have been a living demonstration for abundance. I just, I love you. I appreciate you. I’m very, very grateful for your willingness to share your voice here.

Jim Dethmer [44:35] Oh, you’re so welcome Lola. You’re just one of my favorite playmates. I’ll play with you anytime, anywhere, whether we’re playing in a podcast or partying or whatever. You’re just one of my favorite playmates.

Lola Wright [44:48] If you enjoyed this show and would like to receive new episodes as they’re published, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and consider leaving a review in Apple Podcasts. Your review helps others find this show. You can follow me at Lola P. Wright on Instagram, Facebook,  LinkedIn,  and Twitter and learn more about my work at lolawright.com. This episode was produced by Quinn Rose with theme music from independent music producer Trey Royal.

Lola Wright [45:34] One of the things that I’m always fascinated about in this political climate is like, “Well, if we let go of Capitalism, then what are we going to have? Socialism.” It’s the mind always thinks in these either or constructs. Like if we let go of Capitalism, I guess that means we’re claiming socialism. And, I just want to always invite like, “But what else could be possible? What if it wasn’t just this or that?” And we can apply that to every area of our lives.